"BHP SELLS CARS, TORQUE WINS RACES" = TOTAL BOLLOCKS

Formula One V10 engine, less torque than most standard turbo diesels. Torque wins races? Err...

Who originally said this shit anyhow? I've seen it attributed to Carrol Shelby, Enzo Ferrari, and Carrol Smith, but did any of them really say it? And if they did, it must have been taken massively out of contact, as frankly, it's a load of rubbish.
Fuck it, as there seems to be no proof who said it, I'm starting a new rumour of who made it up, maybe that'd stop people quoting this shit...

You know though, I'm sure it's a mis-quote, and I think I know where it comes from...

Imagine you had a car with BIG bhp, but a tiny peaky powerband, and a gearbox without close ratios. So every time you changed up a gear, you dropped out the powerband, killing your acceleration. So despite the big peak power number, a lesser tuned car, which was less peaky so didn't drop out the powerband, and no doubt had more low/mid torque, would actually be faster; especially on tighter tracks.
In the old days, where this quote seems to originate from, this would be even more of an issue, especially with heavy "muscle" cars running 4, 3, or even 2 speed gearboxes, which means powerful but peaky cars would easily drop out the powerband and be shit slow compared to torquey but low power cars.
But these days, where you tend to have to either totally fuck up the spec to make it mega peaky, and even peaky engines have closely spaced 5/6/7/8 speed gearboxes, the likelyhood of even a road car being driven properly falling out the powerband is slim, and literally no chance on a well built race car.
That's my theory anyhow- This quote is out-dated and taken out of context.

Anyhow, this quote, almost always used by butthurt turbo diesel owners, low power V6 and V8 owners, and anyone arguing with a Honda owners, just makes people who are trying to be clever just sound clueless, like they've never had a proper race or even driven a performance car in their lives. I mean seriously? One tear up with a lower torque but higher power car would tell them their argument is pretty retarded.

When most people talk about torque, what they really mean is low/midrange grunt, and while it's great (I LOVE torque, it makes cars much more fun to drive, in fact it's why I love big boost turbo engines), and it's certainly something any performance engine, road or race, should aim for the maximum of, providing they've got the traction to make use of it, it's not what wins races, power is.

BHP is just Torque and Revs combined. It's a tricky one to explain in words, it's far easier to experience in reality by driving various cars, but torque is the "Strength" of your engine at a set rpm, but the faster your engine is spinning the bigger effect torque has on performance, so torque+rpm = POWER, which is key to how fast your engine can accelerate (providing it can stay in the powerband though the gears, that is!).

First up on the explanation list, a BMW F1 engine dyno graph (allegedly) from the a 2007 2.4ltr F1 engine...

So, what do we have here? Well, it's about 740bhp, and a pretty tiny 230lb/ft of torque.
So 6lb/ft less than a Golf TDI. And with about 150lb/ft at 6500rpm, it's got about the same torque at that RPM as an EP Civic Type-R, which frankly, isn't a whole lot- People make fun of Type-Rs for being torqueless, but F1 engines are no better.
Next up, a standard BMW 335D, 3ltr twin turbo diesel engine...

The above dyno is at the wheels, so I'm going to add about 30bhp/30lbft to these numbers, which about tallies up with the official 282bhp and 428lb/ft figures.
Either way, say peak torque is 428lb/ft, that's 200lb/ft more than a Formula Fucking One engine. And a remapped one is something upwards of 500lb/ft if I remember right, over DOUBLE what one of the modern V8 era F1 engines were.

Does that mean Formula 1 teams are stupid and they should've just used a 335D engine with a £150 plug in remap and be shitloads faster? Fuck no, as only retards think that.

Fuck, even comparing like for like cars, 335i vs 335d, and the 335i is plenty faster, despite "Only" having 20bhp more than the diesel, and about 130lb/ft LESS. Basically, it's not true.

The above picture is about the predictable thing every "Torque wins races" person says next... "But, but, but, WRC cars only have 300bhp but like 700lbt/ft, and they're mega fast, they win races" YES, but they've not got '300bhp' by choice- That's all they can manage because the rules dictated an inlet restrictor to prevent power going higher.
With no option of more power, no issues with traction due to 4wd and sticky tyres, AND a style of motorsport that involves a lot of very slow corners where instant momentary punch of acceleration is a big advantage, you'd be out of your mind not to go for maximum torque to go with the limited bhp you're stuck with.
But for next year the rules in WRC are changing once again, inlet restrictors bigger than ever, allowing more than 400bhp if I remember right. So will they still go for maximum possible power, if it's "Torque that wins races"? Fuck yes they will, as it's power that's the no1 performance enhancer.

Another argument by these people are "So, if torque isn't important, why do drag cars run big V8s?". Err, mostly as they're the easiest to get POWER from you clowns. The above car is Larry Larson's S10 10ltr twin turbo V8 pickup truck. Yeah it's got fucking shitloads of torque, but the reason it runs 5sec quarters at over 240mph is because the bloody thing has upwards of 3000bhp!
Torque is a BAD thing for him, and because of this he deliberately launches at just 8psi of boost, as at full boost it'd make so much torque it'd just smoke the tyres. In fact it's only ramped up to full boost (50psi!) by most the way down the track and he's already doing over 180mph! "Low RPM V8 Grunt" is literally no issue on fast drag cars either- Larry's car never sees under 8000rpm for the whole run after 1st gear!
So once again, power wins races, and in fact, torque can slow you down if you've got more than your tyres can handle...

Why do so many really, really, fast drag cars run centrifugal superchargers, despite turbos giving far more power, and positive displacement superchargers give far more torque? Because turbos and positive displacement superchargers give TOO MUCH torque for the grip, meaning too much wheelspin for any given power level, making them slower overall. Centrifugal chargers increase boost linearly with rpm, giving LOTS of power, almost as much as turbos, but adding only a little extra torque, especially at low and midrange rpm, so they are FAST due to the big power, but still don't wheelspin due to the lower torque.

It's the same reason a lot of the fastest FWD track cars run centrifugal chargers too- FWD is grip limited, and they need big power to "win races", but don't want too much torque or it overpowers the tyres, and thanks to the power delivery of the centrifugal charger they can use more throttle more of the time without it being wasted in wheelspin.

It's the same reason many production turbo cars, and most the fastest turbo race cars, run lower boost in lower gears and lower rpm, compared to in higher revs and rpm- To limit torque so they've got more traction, making them far faster overall.

It's also why naturally aspirated 2wd rally cars are often as fast, or faster, than the 4wd turbo rally cars, on grippy dry tarmac surfaces (where 4wd was no advantage), despite having the same power and often well over 400lb/ft LESS torque- Because its POWER that's the number one performance enhancer, not torque. This happened a lot in the late 90s, with the 4wd turbo WRC cars vs the N/A FWD F2 Maxi Kit cars...

"So, is torque totally pointless then or what???​"

Fuck no! Torque is awesome! Generally, I fucking hate cars with no torque! Surely, if you've any experience of driving at all, you know torque is great, but despite all this, it's not the key need for pure performance.
Low/midrange torque makes for a nicer, easier, car to drive, especially in slow/fast/slow/fast/slow driving, saving you constantly rowing the gearbox to stay at high rpm where the power is. It's why things like Type-R Hondas need driving hard and dropping gears constantly to be fast, and a Golf TDI just needs the throttle planting in almost any gear to go fast- But ultimately, the Honda, with more power, despite loads less torque, is the fastest if both are driven on the limit.
I drive like a dick and love drifting, so LOTS of torque to smoke the tyres is great for me too. I actually find a lot of drift car setups bizarre, as they ideally want torque but the engine isn't tuned/specced for it.
And regardless of drifting, I like BIG boost, as boost = torque, and torque = fun to drive, BUT if I wanted to go as fast as possible, while I'd want the MOST torque my tyres could handle- I'd not want more than that, as it'd be pointless.

So overall...
TORQUE = GOOD.
TORQUE IF YOU GOT THE GRIP FOR IT = FAST
BUT FAST? = POWERRRRRRRR